Comments on: Sometimes a bench is a bench http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/ part of the wood whisperer network Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:59:57 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: Tom http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/comment-page-1/#comment-1037 Tom Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:41:21 +0000 http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/#comment-1037 Doug - I'm reading you loud and clear. I may go out and sketch my own plans, borrowing from some of the more interesting ones out there.. but, I'm keeping my eyes opened. What has really helped me is reading the Scott Landis Book on workbenches. A real eye-opener. So many different forms of benches out there... Some with totally different outlooks on design and functionality than were put forth in the Schwarz book. Fer instance, where Chris vehemently advises against putting any storage under the bench, Landis went to several Shaker museums and found most of the benches had full cabinets under the top. I doubt anyone will claim that the Shakers appeared to be handicapped by the design. The process is slow, but I'm in no hurry - after all, I have taken two weeks off in the Christmas/New Year holiday period, and I'm looking forward to building the bench during those days. Actually, I'm kind of enjoying sketching out different features and toying with different ideas... Doug - I’m reading you loud and clear. I may go out and sketch my own plans, borrowing from some of the more interesting ones out there.. but, I’m keeping my eyes opened.

What has really helped me is reading the Scott Landis Book on workbenches. A real eye-opener. So many different forms of benches out there… Some with totally different outlooks on design and functionality than were put forth in the Schwarz book.

Fer instance, where Chris vehemently advises against putting any storage under the bench, Landis went to several Shaker museums and found most of the benches had full cabinets under the top. I doubt anyone will claim that the Shakers appeared to be handicapped by the design.

The process is slow, but I’m in no hurry - after all, I have taken two weeks off in the Christmas/New Year holiday period, and I’m looking forward to building the bench during those days. Actually, I’m kind of enjoying sketching out different features and toying with different ideas…

]]> By: Doug Brummett http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/comment-page-1/#comment-1036 Doug Brummett Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:23:56 +0000 http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/#comment-1036 Interesting observations. Nothing but respect for the Schwarz here, but I have to agree on some of the views that educators are passing along these days. What is worse is that these opinions are amplified by their minions. With the online forums it can get to be a serious bandwagon approach to education of new woodworkers. I like the truck analogy. Very good parallel there. As another WW'er in the process of putting together a bench more in tune with woodworking I find myself going back and forth a lot. Too much. It can easily turn into a case of "paralysis by analysis", wherein nothing actually gets done. When I start to bog down I just go into the shop and remind myself that I have been getting by on 2 clamp on vises just fine, so any more sensible approach will be adequate. I think the Woodright's thoughts on industrialization apply here too. With so many people chiming in that a nice twin screw vise is the thing to get people forget that there are other ways. In contrast there is a user over on sawmill creek "harry strasil" that has great utilitarian benches. No vise, no problem just drill some dog holes and use wedges for holding on the bench top. There are many ways to skin a cat, just choose what works for you. Sounds like you are enjoying the design and research phase. Interesting observations. Nothing but respect for the Schwarz here, but I have to agree on some of the views that educators are passing along these days. What is worse is that these opinions are amplified by their minions. With the online forums it can get to be a serious bandwagon approach to education of new woodworkers.

I like the truck analogy. Very good parallel there. As another WW’er in the process of putting together a bench more in tune with woodworking I find myself going back and forth a lot. Too much. It can easily turn into a case of “paralysis by analysis”, wherein nothing actually gets done. When I start to bog down I just go into the shop and remind myself that I have been getting by on 2 clamp on vises just fine, so any more sensible approach will be adequate.

I think the Woodright’s thoughts on industrialization apply here too. With so many people chiming in that a nice twin screw vise is the thing to get people forget that there are other ways. In contrast there is a user over on sawmill creek “harry strasil” that has great utilitarian benches. No vise, no problem just drill some dog holes and use wedges for holding on the bench top. There are many ways to skin a cat, just choose what works for you.

Sounds like you are enjoying the design and research phase.

]]> By: Vic http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/comment-page-1/#comment-997 Vic Sun, 28 Sep 2008 05:08:53 +0000 http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/#comment-997 While I don't think I'll be building a straight up Roubo, I do like several things about the bench. David over at The Folding Rule was building a bench not too long ago that had some cool features, as well. I'm with you, study up and pick the features that best suit what you want to accomplish. I've gotta say, I really enjoyed the book. Schwarz is a good writer. While I don’t think I’ll be building a straight up Roubo, I do like several things about the bench.
David over at The Folding Rule was building a bench not too long ago that had some cool features, as well. I’m with you, study up and pick the features that best suit what you want to accomplish. I’ve gotta say, I really enjoyed the book. Schwarz is a good writer.

]]> By: Tom http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/comment-page-1/#comment-952 Tom Tue, 23 Sep 2008 16:07:10 +0000 http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/#comment-952 Oh, Marc - sure, there were at least a dozen times during the book I slapped my forehead and said 'duh, that's elementary!' The point you made about allowing clearance under the bench is critical - especially due to the fact that I use those hold downs from Jorgenson. And, without a doubt, my next bench will have a built-in planing stop. Heck, I just put two of the toothed models on my wish list over at Lee Valley. However, I wasn't completely jazzed about all of his analysis. I have been able to overcome the flush leg mandate with an easy, elegant and CHEAP alternative that ends up giving me a great deal of flexibility. In this article: http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/02/19/edge-jointing-using-hand-planes/ I showed how I use a shop built 'appliance' - basically two pieces of southern yellow pine - roughly dovetailed together. The 'face' piece is planed to the exact thickness of the face vice jaws, and it can fit in any of the dog holes along the front edge. Using that, I can clamp one end of any board in the vise, and the other to the appliance. I use it for dovetailing, edge planing - the works. Replaces the need to build a complicated sliding deadman... As I said during the review - the book is awesome and well worth the read. I'm also checking out the Workbench Book by Scott Landis from my library to see what he has to say - and I also went through my decade spanning magazine collection to grab any and all plans for benches I could. Oh, I'm gonna research this one well - and, since I have been approved for two weeks off between Christmas and New Years, well, I think I know what I'm going to be building then... :D Oh, Marc - sure, there were at least a dozen times during the book I slapped my forehead and said ‘duh, that’s elementary!’ The point you made about allowing clearance under the bench is critical - especially due to the fact that I use those hold downs from Jorgenson. And, without a doubt, my next bench will have a built-in planing stop. Heck, I just put two of the toothed models on my wish list over at Lee Valley.

However, I wasn’t completely jazzed about all of his analysis. I have been able to overcome the flush leg mandate with an easy, elegant and CHEAP alternative that ends up giving me a great deal of flexibility.

In this article:

http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/02/19/edge-jointing-using-hand-planes/

I showed how I use a shop built ‘appliance’ - basically two pieces of southern yellow pine - roughly dovetailed together. The ‘face’ piece is planed to the exact thickness of the face vice jaws, and it can fit in any of the dog holes along the front edge. Using that, I can clamp one end of any board in the vise, and the other to the appliance. I use it for dovetailing, edge planing - the works. Replaces the need to build a complicated sliding deadman…

As I said during the review - the book is awesome and well worth the read. I’m also checking out the Workbench Book by Scott Landis from my library to see what he has to say - and I also went through my decade spanning magazine collection to grab any and all plans for benches I could.

Oh, I’m gonna research this one well - and, since I have been approved for two weeks off between Christmas and New Years, well, I think I know what I’m going to be building then… :D

]]> By: Marc http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/comment-page-1/#comment-951 Marc Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:24:52 +0000 http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/#comment-951 Good write-up Tom. You made me see this book through a different set of eyeballs. At this point in my woodworking career, I really enjoyed reading the analysis of the common workbench designs. There may be a degree of over-analysis in this book, but what would you expect from someone who eats, drinks, and sleeps woodworking? lol We have to rely on some people to take their studies to the extreme, so that at the very least, a filtered version of their message trickles down into the general consciousness. As someone who already has a workbench and who could probably write a few paragraphs of his own on its shortcomings, I found the book to be very informative and will certainly help guide my next workbench build. But I suppose for someone just starting out, the book could very well induce paralysis by analysis. I don't know about you, but I find that it is very easy to get in that trap where you place so much importance on the design that you never get to the building phase. Your knowledge of the importance of the perfect design actually prevents you from committing. I think Chris's analysis is solid and has changed the way I look at workbenches. But you definitely made some valid points Tom. A great take home message is that you DO NOT need a perfectly-engineered workbench to do fine woodworking. Many folks can attest to that. But I have a question for you. Chris introduced some ideas that were "Duh!" moments for me. For instance, having adequate clearance under the bench for clamping and having the legs and apron flush at the front, with no overhang. I can't really find any justification for doing otherwise. Will you include features like this in your design? And if not, do you have a specific reason? Great job Tom. Peace out! Good write-up Tom. You made me see this book through a different set of eyeballs. At this point in my woodworking career, I really enjoyed reading the analysis of the common workbench designs. There may be a degree of over-analysis in this book, but what would you expect from someone who eats, drinks, and sleeps woodworking? lol We have to rely on some people to take their studies to the extreme, so that at the very least, a filtered version of their message trickles down into the general consciousness.

As someone who already has a workbench and who could probably write a few paragraphs of his own on its shortcomings, I found the book to be very informative and will certainly help guide my next workbench build. But I suppose for someone just starting out, the book could very well induce paralysis by analysis. I don’t know about you, but I find that it is very easy to get in that trap where you place so much importance on the design that you never get to the building phase. Your knowledge of the importance of the perfect design actually prevents you from committing.

I think Chris’s analysis is solid and has changed the way I look at workbenches. But you definitely made some valid points Tom. A great take home message is that you DO NOT need a perfectly-engineered workbench to do fine woodworking. Many folks can attest to that.

But I have a question for you. Chris introduced some ideas that were “Duh!” moments for me. For instance, having adequate clearance under the bench for clamping and having the legs and apron flush at the front, with no overhang. I can’t really find any justification for doing otherwise. Will you include features like this in your design? And if not, do you have a specific reason?

Great job Tom. Peace out!

]]> By: John Gray http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/comment-page-1/#comment-946 John Gray Tue, 23 Sep 2008 03:56:44 +0000 http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/#comment-946 My 2 cents is.....you do not have to have an "all out" bench if you are new to woodworking the idea of a B&D Workmate would be a good place to start. Who knows you might even not like wood working so don't invest in a lot of expensive materials to build a large bench. My 2 cents is…..you do not have to have an “all out” bench if you are new to woodworking the idea of a B&D Workmate would be a good place to start. Who knows you might even not like wood working so don’t invest in a lot of expensive materials to build a large bench.

]]> By: Tom http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/comment-page-1/#comment-942 Tom Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:51:38 +0000 http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/#comment-942 Remember, I have nothing but respect for the Power of the Schwarz... I just think his focus got a wee bit too narrow in that book. I was just at the library checking out a few more books - believe me, when I get to building this bench, it's gonna be very well researched! :D Remember, I have nothing but respect for the Power of the Schwarz… I just think his focus got a wee bit too narrow in that book. I was just at the library checking out a few more books - believe me, when I get to building this bench, it’s gonna be very well researched! :D

]]> By: Eric http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/comment-page-1/#comment-941 Eric Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:48:22 +0000 http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/#comment-941 Woah, taking on The Schwarz! I haven't read his book yet, but I have to say that you've made some excellent points. I'm thinking about making my bench, and am leaning towards a Japanese-style bench. Part of me still feels guilty, though, for even considering forsaking Roubo, which just shows how pervasive The Schwarz' influence has been the past few years. Woah, taking on The Schwarz! I haven’t read his book yet, but I have to say that you’ve made some excellent points. I’m thinking about making my bench, and am leaning towards a Japanese-style bench. Part of me still feels guilty, though, for even considering forsaking Roubo, which just shows how pervasive The Schwarz’ influence has been the past few years.

]]> By: Neil http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/comment-page-1/#comment-939 Neil Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:22:20 +0000 http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/#comment-939 Hi Tom.........I couldn't agree with you more. I believe the "aura" placed on the workbench today hinders entry into the hobby for some. That old Black and Decker Workmate....is a wonderful bench to start on. Found your "bench zealot" term interesting, the quality of goods I've been a part of coming off of 2 saw horses and a sheet of ply has always made me question this high regard by many on "the bench". For me. it's the production off the bench that has always held precedent over the aesthetics of a shop. Interesting read, thanks.........Neil Hi Tom………I couldn’t agree with you more. I believe the “aura” placed on the workbench today hinders entry into the hobby for some. That old Black and Decker Workmate….is a wonderful bench to start on.

Found your “bench zealot” term interesting, the quality of goods I’ve been a part of coming off of 2 saw horses and a sheet of ply has always made me question this high regard by many on “the bench”. For me. it’s the production off the bench that has always held precedent over the aesthetics of a shop.

Interesting read, thanks………Neil

]]> By: Michael http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/comment-page-1/#comment-933 Michael Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:14:57 +0000 http://tomsworkbench.com/2008/09/22/sometimes-a-bench-is-a-bench/#comment-933 Tom, I couldn't agree more on the overhyping of certian workbenches. I'm a begining woodworker who does his work in a two car garage that stores two cars and am in the begining stages of building my first workbench. I chose to build the new 21st Century Workbench by Popular Woodworking (with a couple tweaks for cost and skill issues). I chose it because it's easy to break down into parts I can easily store and it's modular design should allow me to upgrade a piece at a time over time as I see fit. Good luck in your decision process. Let us know what you go with! Thanks, Michael Tom,

I couldn’t agree more on the overhyping of certian workbenches. I’m a begining woodworker who does his work in a two car garage that stores two cars and am in the begining stages of building my first workbench. I chose to build the new 21st Century Workbench by Popular Woodworking (with a couple tweaks for cost and skill issues). I chose it because it’s easy to break down into parts I can easily store and it’s modular design should allow me to upgrade a piece at a time over time as I see fit.

Good luck in your decision process. Let us know what you go with!

Thanks,
Michael

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